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Discussion in 'The Mac Versus PC Forum' started by Richard Bailey, Jul 19, 2007.



  1. Richard Bailey

    Richard Bailey Technology Fan

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    Gene let me start by apologizing for this post. My statements on the other forum were from the Linux perspective. I do not own a Mac, however I would dearly love to. On the occasions that I have used one it was a little slice of heaven. Since I have five desktops and two laptops Mac is not cost effective for me. Someday..

    Since we were ask to come over here I will try to keep this discussion as short as possible. A little background.

    I have been using personal computers since I received my first Commodore vic -20. I moved over to the PC when dos 3.3 and ten meg hard drives were all the rage and you still had to insert the memory chips directly into the mother board. Since then I have used dos 3.3, dos 5.0, windows 2.0, windows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, millennium, 2000 pro, xp, and vista. I build my own machines, most for specific purposes. Oh, I almost forgot I was a BBS sysop on several boards including my own in the Late 80's and early 90's and was one of the first sysops to take advantage of the emerging (at that time) Usenet. I currently Have a website devoted to amateur radio, a packet BBS system that operates over the air on VHF, and produce my own podcast. Now that bit was just so we are clear that I might know what I am talking about. Not an expert just someone with some experience under his belt.

    Ok on the the question at hand. On the other forum DBTrek ask me to demonstrate some proof to the statement that I made concerning Microsoft sliding down the slope to oblivion. This is a Short list of places that do not use Microsoft

    The French Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries chooses Mandriva Linux Corporate Server 4.0 for its servers.
    77% of the worlds top 500 Supercomputers use Linux only 0.40% percent use Windows
    US National Weather Service
    National Center for Environmental Prediction
    San Diego School District 8th Largest in the Nation rolls out laptops with Linux
    Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME)
    DreamsWorks Animation ( Yes, Shrek 3 )
    Pep Boys
    Boscov's
    The City of Munich, Germany
    Peugeot
    That is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Microsoft is aware that they are losing market shares everyday and are still trying to use intimidation to keep what they have left. That is why they have recently filed frivolous patent infringement law suites against companies and projects that they feel are cutting into their bottom line.
    They have also tried to make deals with some of their competitors in an attempt to put them selves in a position to minimize their loses.
    Ubuntu and Red Hat Rejects Microsoft Patent Deal
    Mandriva Linux - Not Our Job to Pay Protection Money
    Even the deal they made with Novell is beginning to crumble with the release of the GPL 3.0
    Acer of India and DELL computers have begun shipping machines with Linux as an alternative to Windows due to overwhelming demand by their customers and potential customers.

    All appliance operators are somewhat insulated so you can't blame some of them if they believe the claims of the Redmond propaganda machine. In these days almost every piece of technology we come in contact with has to have an operating system from cell phones to MP3 players. How many of these do you think are running on MS operating systems? Your TIVO and or Linksys router run on a Linux based operating system as well as most cell phones. In fact a WRT54G router can be taken from a low end router to an advanced router just by doing a firmware upgrade to one of the Linux OS based firmware.

    Lastly on th Microsoft issue I would like to say. Microsoft is the only company on the planet that releases beta versions of their software as the initial release. dos 4.0, dos 6.0, Windows 98, Windows Millennium, Windows XP and our favorite Windows VISTA all were released needing major bug fixes. Not to mention the security holes in the later versions of Internet Explorer. The code required to run the current windows version is not what takes so much room on your hard drive it is all the old code that they never removed just locked off and built on top of and the unneeded video and code known as ”Easter eggs”. I am sure it will get better just this last week MS patented some new piece of technology that will allow them to turn their operating system into on large piece of spyware. Soon they will know all that you do. Thinking an operating system is the best because it is what was on the machine when you bought it is like buying a house because because you like the color of the shingles on the roof.

    Now the MAC, Apple has over the years drawn from the open source community and built an outstanding operating system (OS 10 I Think). They offer a superior product at a superior price. You get what you pay for. The Local school district here uses exclusively MAC. I have a friend that works for the district and I get to put my hands on them on occasion. For a wordsmith or graphics artist I think they are the best tool around. For the rest of us we are limited to these PC's. Luckily we are not locked into using the operating system we are told to use by the monopoly minded folks in Washington state. We have a choice.

    One more time, Thanks Gene for giving me a place to post this

    Richard Bailey
    Not afraid to use my real name
     
  2. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    Thank you for sharing your opinions.

    Our sites are hosted on a virtual dedicated server running Linux. We'd love to use Macs, but the hosts that offer them charge extra for the privilege. Everything runs super-stable, which is a tribute to the quality of the software, but also HostICan, the firm we use.

    I agree that Microsoft is suffering a lot more than some might admit. Consider the $1 billion-plus charge they are taking against defective Xbox's. The fact that the head of that division left is an indication there's trouble afoot, but a lot of the tech press won't cop to the truth.

    In Europe, Firefox is gaining market share big-time, and in some countries has almost approached a majority status. This despite the fact that Microsoft gave Internet Explorer 7 to Windows XP users as a standard required update, and the fact that it's the default browser in Windows Vista.

    Times -- they are a changing.
     
  3. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

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    A little about my background, since I guess that's how were establishing who's the biggest nerd or something:

    I first began playing with PC's when my dad brought home a Commodore Vic 20 with a cassette tape drive. From there I moved on to the Commodore 64 (where I taught myself to do some rudimentary BASIC programming).

    During the following years I have personally built or bought the following CPU-based systems: the IBM XT (8086), AT (8088), 286, 386, 486, 486 DX2, Cyrix 166, Pentium, Pentium II, Pentium IV, Pentium-D (Dual Core), and Pentium Core 2 Duo (present). Oh, I played with an Apple IIe in school too, and a TRS-80. Can't leave those out!

    I've used Dos 3.0 through 6.6, Windows 3.0, 95, 98, 98SE, XP Home and Professional, Vista (Home Premium), Tiger OSX, Red Hat 5.0, and Solaris.

    I've had several jobs requiring me to build hundreds of PC's for various industries, and I have created and imaged countless hard drives with unique user software specs.

    I college I minored in Computer Science, and I have average (if not rusty) programming skills in C, C++, JAVA, and Visual C. I'm also familiar with (have written programs in) PERL, Python, and PROlOG, and Assembly.

    Currently I'm working tech support (hardware and software) for a major hospital in Seattle. I build, image, and deploy specialized PC based systems to several medical campuses in the area. There are a handful of Linux systems as well .. . no Mac's tho, Gene, sorry.

    What this has to do with the price of tea in China I'm not sure, but hopefully that brief introduction will qualify me to state that you're both quite wrong, Microsoft is not 'rapidly approaching last place' (as Richard stated in the other forum) in the OS market.

    It has long been the tactic of the 'Applelite' and 'Linux-Head' to scour the news far and wide searching for anyone (please god!!!) that has switched over to their preferred system. They then quote this business defection as 'proof' of Microsofts impending doom.

    I guess, in the computer world, you're like the un-shaven alley dwellers that emerge from the darkened city streets a couple hours a day to wave a "THE END IS NEAR" sign . . . but it just ain't so.
    :p:D:p

    The thing about buying a product that performs well in a niche market (like iMacs), is that you are able to do a few things very well. The temptation is to look at these few well performed tasks and assume (with the help of some slick advertising) that the doom of Micrsoft is inevitable and Macs are just inches away from world domination.

    Let's take a small moment and look at the market capitalization:

    Apple: 121.09 Billion (and how much of that is iPod, iPhone, etc?)
    Microsoft: 301.45 Billion (or 2.48 Apple's)

    It's not even close.

    These numbers indicate (among other things) where consumers and businesses have put their hard earned cash. For a company that's supposedly 'rapidly plummeting' towards last place Microsoft seems to be doing extremely well.

    But it's late, and I gotta head home. I'll write more tomorrow since my internet connection is down at the moment . . .
    . . . and no, it has nothing to do with Microsoft, sorry. It's Millenium Digital Cable and their sporadic outages. I'm cancelling the service and moving to Qwest :p

    But please be sure to call me on those new iPhones, if Microsoft happens to collapse between now and tomorrow morning. With the end so very imminent I'd hate to miss the big implosion.

    Hahahahahahah

    -DBTrek
     
  4. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    My response to you is: McDonalds.

    That a company has the largest market share doesn't mean they make the best product.

    May the platform wars continue :)
     
  5. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

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    By what citeria are we to judge 'best'? I offer the idea of looking at the market. Here we can examine people and businesses who have a choice between Apple, Linux, and Microsoft platforms. We can examine where the money flows from those decisions and extrapolate an idea of what most people prefer. From there we can say "overall, this platform seems best since most users prefer it".

    Just like McDonald's . . . when it comes to making a restaurant purchase, most Americans find McDonalds 'best' for their budgets or tastes.

    . . . but it's just one way of approaching the problem.

    What would you suggest basing the determination of 'best' on?

    -DBTrek
     
  6. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    I don't think too many people feel McDonald's food tests best.

    Reliability: Mac OS X is better.

    Freedom from malware: Mac OS X is better.

    Productivity: All surveys published showing the most productive platform indicate the Mac is better.

    This has been brought to your attention elsewhere. My suggestion is that you provide contrary information, if you can.
     
  7. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

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    As I recall the links you supplied (on the other forum) all came from Apple, with one from a Mac enthusiast. I don't think any independent studies were provided . . . and I know that Apple is going to tell me Macs are superior. :)

    The question is do any un-affiliated professional testers think Macs are superior?

    -DBTrek
     
  8. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    Your memory is somewhat defective, DB. The surveys I showed you at the time were all done by independent people (even the ones quoted by Apple).

    Let's see your surveys, OK?
     
  9. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

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    Ah . . . I'm supposed to do all the work. The Linux dude claims that MS is rapidly falling to 'last place' among OS's, and you claim that Macs are superior due to procutivity . . . but the onus is on me to demostrate that you're both crackpots, not on you guys to build a case.

    I see how this works. :p

    Ok . . . as for your productivity agrument, Take a look at the graph found here: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2

    And you'll see the OS market share is broken down as follows:
    Windows XP 81.94%
    Windows Vista 4.52%
    Windows 2000 4%

    Mac OS 3.53%

    Therefore 90.46% of people (presumably) being productive on computers are using a Windows OS. Even if Mac users were (by some miracle) twice as productive as PC users (and they're not) they would not come anywhere near producing the same amount that people working on Windows OS's are.

    Of course, there are many applications that don't run natively on a Mac at all, so the productivity of Mac users with these applications is zero . . . or highly reduced due to them running the programs through emulators.

    Reliability is easy to achive when your PC has limited abilities to begin with. The fewer 'moving parts' available the less chance there is for something to go wrong. Apple is indeed king of the 'fewest moving parts' when it come to OS's. That can bee a good thing, if you want to do the handful of things that Macs do well. Otherwise, it is a hinderence.

    Viruses . . . yep . . . Windows has more viruses. Maybe because they have over 90% of the OS market share? Who writes viruses to harm 3.52% of computer users?

    Now . . . I think you probably meant "Macs are more productive if you take something a Mac is actually able to do natively, and then compare it to a Windows Machine with the same application". To which I would reply "Since they don't run on the same hardware, how could you possibly tell? Would you like to take your Mac Photoshop benchmarks and throw them up against ones I could produce on a Quad-Core Intel with 8 Gigs of Ram and a two NVISIA SLI video cards?" Probably not . . . but that test wouldn't really tell us much about the OS, since the advantage would be due to hardware performace.

    This is why we need impartial testing done by experts on the operating systems before one side or the other can claim superiority.

    . . . and even then, were limiting the game to apps that Macs can run natively . . . so we have to start by gimping the competition just so Macs can compete.

    Hence I find them 'not superior'.

    -DBTrek
     
  10. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    So you don't lose sight of the goal, Apple uses Intel hardware these days. In fact the first 3GHz quad-core Xeons were made available to Apple ahead of other PC makers.

    As to the rest, I still don't see anything from you about productivity.
     
  11. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

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    It was in there, 90.46% of all the people being procutive on a PC use a Windows OS compared to the 3.52% using a MAC.

    Advantage: Windows.

    -DBTrek
     
  12. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    No, no, we're talking about how productive someone is on each individual computer. Gee :)
     
  13. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

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    I have an idea.

    How about Mr. "Deep Pockets" Steinberg with his two podcasts and multiple books sends me $4000. I will use that money to [size=xx-small](buy beer, and) [/size]set up two identical intel hardware platforms. Then I'll buy a copy of Tiger OS X, Wondows XP Pro, and Windows Vista Pro, along with whatever software I can find that will run natively on all the systems.

    Then I'll benchmark them, and you can talk about the results in your next book or podcast.

    Now THAT sounds like a plan. I do all the work, you get all the glory. What's 4G's to a media legend?

    hahah

    :cool:

    -DBTrek
     
  14. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    We aren't talking about benchmarks of application performance, but productivity, as measured by an independent body doing controlled tests.

    But it was a nice try :rolleyes:
     
  15. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

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    Oh, wait, maybe you can cancel the check. After digging, digging, and digging on Google I finally found someone who had the ingenius idea of running World of Warcraft on his MacBook. He benchmarked the game on exactly the same hardware (since it was the same laptop) thereby removing hardware bias from the equation.

    Granted this jokers blog entry is hardly a peer-reviewed work of world renowned experts, the test is simple enough to understand.

    Ther results are here: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/04/19

    To quote a small portion:

    He later states:
    The first dent to your productivity argument. Those producing gold pieces and experience for their WOW characters (even ones using a MacBook) prefer Windows.

    -DBTrek
     
  16. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    It really has nothing to do with anything, other than whether one particular game plays better on the Mac or Windows platform. That's not an issue of productivity for people in a workplace environment. I'm sorry you don't see the distinction.
     
  17. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

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    Yet another page that offers bootcamp charts for cinebench pitting OS X vs. XP. These charts also fail to show any sort of solid performance advantage for the MAc OS (though at least there's a little back and forth on these): http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/apr06/040506.html

    So . .. I guess since you're offering little to back your own opinions I'm content to let it sit here for the moment. Readers of the thread can look at the evidence I've presented and judge for themselves. We already know which OS has the most available native applications . .. so given that, plus market share, plus the performance statistics I feel my point is made.

    I'll be out all weekend so maybe that will give you time to dig something up.

    -DBTrek
     
  18. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    It has noting to do with what I'm talking about.

    Try again.
     
  19. Richard Bailey

    Richard Bailey Technology Fan

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    DING DING.....

    You guys go to your corners for a minute.

    “It has long been the tactic of the 'Applelite' and 'Linux-Head' to scour the news far and wide searching for anyone (please god!!!) that has switched over to their preferred system. They then quote this business defection as 'proof' of Microsoft's impending doom.”

    I wouldn't say scour, it was more like put it in the search engine and grab the first handful that came up.

    “The thing about buying a product that performs well in a niche market (like iMacs), is that you are able to do a few things very well. The temptation is to look at these few well performed tasks and assume (with the help of some slick advertising) that the doom of Microsoft is inevitable and Macs are just inches away from world domination.”

    I am not sure why you are attacking MACs but I'll play. You are right it is better to have one operating system that can do everything badly. Shame on MACs for doing several things very, very well. Guess that is the difference between a toy and a tool. BTW MAC users can run just about anything a windows machine can run. Now that iMac's are powered by Intel chips they can run most MS software using one of the many Virtual Machine packages out there. Can your Windows do that with Apple software?

    “Let's take a small moment and look at the market capitalization:”

    I am sorry if I said capitalization, I don't think I did. Market capitalization won't work in buttressing the Microsoft argument. That has to do with actual sales of product. All but one or two Linux desktop distro's are a free download, Cell phones and other appliances don't have there OS's tracked. BTW what operating system does your microwave use. I find it telling that XP is still outselling Vista.

    “Apple: 121.09 Billion (and how much of that is iPod, iPhone, etc?)
    Microsoft: 301.45 Billion (or 2.48 Apple's)”

    301.45 Billion. Pretty impressive, how much of that did you say was Zune, Xbox, Windows CE, etc?


    “By what citeria (criteria) are we to judge 'best'? I offer the idea of looking at the market. Here we can examine people and businesses who have a choice between Apple, Linux, and Microsoft platforms. We can examine where the money flows from those decisions and extrapolate an idea of what most people prefer. From there we can say "overall, this platform seems best since most users prefer it". “

    OK, let's look at the market realistically. You know that Microsoft requires a license for each Server and work station. You also know that if someone decides to load a different OS on their machine when they get home it still shows as a sale for Microsoft. It is easy to be a big fish in the capitalization pond when your product is shoved in everybody's face. Ask your local phone, electric providers. if you are familiar with Red Hat them you know that it is an enterprise operating system not targeted to the desktop community. Fedora is the desktop version of Red Hat and is a free download. So you will not get capitalization figures concerning Fedora 7. That doesn't stop it from being one of the most download pieces of software on the internet. Sales is the first place that the Redmond propaganda machine starts their argument because they don't have to skew the numbers themselves

    “ Just like McDonald's . . . when it comes to making a restaurant purchase, most Americans find McDonalds 'best' for their budgets or tastes.

    . . . but it's just one way of approaching the problem. “

    Doesn't hurt that there is one five miles in any direction, even in the parts of town that other companies won't open a store in. Doesn't hurt that they are in most of the Walmart's nation wide either. Don't we call that market saturation. Guess that makes Microsoft the Mcdonalds of operating systems.

    “Viruses . . . yep . . . Windows has more viruses. Maybe because they have over 90% of the OS market share? Who writes viruses to harm 3.52% of computer users?”

    When most Linux users have at least a basic level of programming skill and most Windows users don't why do you think Windows has more viruses? I have two words..... Exploitable Bugs. Comes from releasing your Beta as an OS.

    “. . . and even then, were limiting the game to apps that Macs can run natively . . . so we have to start by gimping the competition just so Macs can compete.”

    Back to the toy vs. tool argument.


    OK, Last but not least. DB do the math. I think the workstation license for Vista is about $90, I am not sure what the server license cost. I think the per workstation cost of a license for Microsoft office is in the $300.00 range. Now not factoring in hardware. 20 workstations, 1 server. $7800.00 plus sever license for windows.
    In Linux, Server software, Desktop OS, Open Office which will do Microsoft documents and let you save as PDF. 20 workstations, 1 server not factoring in hardware = $0.

    Do your homework

    Do the math

    I'm off to do my podcast, see you guys tomorrow.

    DING DING DING..... Round Two
     
  20. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    I find it hard to disagree with what you say, Richard, for the most part.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Let's see what DB has to say.
     
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