1. A PREMIUM TECH NIGHT OWL LIVE EXPERIENCE! Welcome to Tech Night Owl+! For a low monthly or annual subscription fee, you will receive access to an ad-free version of The Tech Night Owl LIVE and other exclusive content. We now offer a direct RSS feed in The Tech Night Owl+ forums for easy updating of the latest episodes. And don't miss The Tech Night Own Minute! Forum members can subscribe now: https://www.technightowl.com/radio/introducing-tech-night-owl/

    Subscribe to The Tech Night Owl Newsletter!
    Dismiss Notice

Off Topic Post

Discussion in 'The Mac Versus PC Forum' started by Richard Bailey, Jul 19, 2007.



  1. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    DB, you're wrapped up with this single report and, no, I haven't purchased a copy and do not expect to. But you still can't produce a single Mac Versus PC report that shows the latter to be more productive.
     
  2. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yep, ya got me there. I can't produce reports from thin air.

    Richard needs to come back and recommend a Linux distro (with X Windows) for a Pentium II 266MHz laptop. DSmallLinux can't handle the display. I'm trying Slackware 9.0 next but at ADSL speeds it takes about 90 minutes to download.

    Linux . . . not bad if your hardware is supported. I had hoped the open source community would've progressed since I played with Red Hat back in . . . 2000? How is it MS manages to get its OS working on all this different hardware but Linux is still tard sauce?

    -DBTrek
     
  3. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Alright then, it's settled . .. winner for best OS is MS Windows. Thanks for chiming in, it was a good debate.

    On to other things . . . I was able to get Slackware 9.0 running on the laptop AND with a little tweaking I was even able to get it to recognize my iPod. By 'a little tweaking' I mean I spent 90 minutes trying to get everything configured properly . . . but hey, it works!

    For the record, it took less than a minute to get it the iPod working on Windows XP/Vista.

    . . . just sayin'.

    :p

    -DBTrek
     
  4. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    It may be settled in your mind, but not in the real world.

    90 minutes?

    Yeah, best. Sure. Right.
     
  5. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    Now on to the core topic that you haven't responded to:

    The following article, not from a Mac or PC-biased source, checks total cost of ownership issues.

    Read it and weep:

    http://www.cio.com/article/127050/Eight_Financial_Reasons_Why_You_Should_Use_Mac_OS/1
     
  6. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am weeping . . . for all of Mac using humanity.

    My specific complaints are as follows:

    1. The majority of it is based on single sources making unsubstantiated claims. Some examples:

    "From talking with his own customers, Schwartau has estimated that Windows adds anywhere from $1,300 to $4,000 to the TCO of each PC, based on support alone. He blames the extra expense mainly on the costs of security software."

    Oh really? Well from talking to my customers I estimate the opposite. Now me and 'Schwartu' both have made unsubstantiated claims, so what?

    Users also concur about the Mac's relative longevity. Hall, for example, is still using the same Mac G4 system he purchased six years ago, although he's since bought two more Macs for use in his real estate practice.
    "Before that, I was fortunate if I could get 12 or 13 months out of a Windows PC. It usually got corrupted long before that," he explains.


    So this cat 'Hall' can't keep a PC running for over a year? I submit he is abnormally incompetent. What do his intellectual shortcomings have to do with the larger debate?

    The Mac is the simplest machine you'll ever put your hands on," agrees Lannie Hall, a RE/MAX Realtor in Atlanta, Ga.

    Thank you Lannie the realtor. I know whenever I have a technology based issue in front of me I consult Lannie . . .afterall, he's a realtor!

    You get the gist. We both know I could post many more of these examples but I'll move on to my next point.

    2. Much of the second page is dedicated to the opinions of IT manager Przemek (pronounced "Chemek") Wozniak. Hmmmm. Wouldn't be related to STEVE WOZNIAK, co-founder of Apple would he? This same 'other' Wozniak is cited in another Apple articles as well, see here (http://www.techworld.com/opsys/features/index.cfm?featureid=3424). What is it about this one IT manager (named Wozniak) that has him appearing in multiple Apple articles? Hmmmmm. Curious.

    3. Cited data is tailored for Apple to have a favorable outcome. For example:
    In 1999, for instance, Gistics released a landmark report analyzing Macs and PCs in terms of return on investment (ROI). Gistics' study was limited strictly to the publishing, graphics and new media fields.

    Why limit the report to just those fields? Can't MacIntosh compete on a level playing field?

    4. Cited Data is skewed by interviewees to favor Apple. For example:
    "Some six years later, soon after the advent of OS X, computer security expert Winn Schwartau created a widely publicized tool geared to helping companies in any industry measure the TCO of Macs versus Windows PCs. Schwartau emphasizes that results from the tool can vary considerably from one business to the next. But at his own small enterprise—then known as Interpact and now dubbed The Security Awareness Company—three-year TCO turned out to be twice as high for Windows than Mac."

    So Schwartu basically says "Well, my tool shows Macs to be twice as cost effective under my undisclosed testing conditions". So is that a common result? Oh no . . . it 'varies considerably' depending on how it's used, but under his undisclosed test conditions Macs are twice as good. This passes for science to Mac users?

    Not much meat there Gene. We have a Realtor, a Wozniak, and a guy using his own tool under unknown test conditions raving about the greatness of Macs.

    I'm not impressed . . . the market says PC buying world isn't impressed. :cool:

    -DBTrek
     
  7. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    I'm so happy you're not impressed. Now impress me with contrary information, if you have any. And, no, sales figures don't mean anything in this discussion.
     
  8. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmmm . . . when it comes to impressing you with Windows I have a feeling you're gonna be a tough customer. Especially since the argument I've already presented is nigh flawless. :p

    Give me a few days to search around and I'll see if I can find anything that might persuade you.

    -DBTrek
     
  9. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    It's hard to be impressed with a second-rate operating system my friend. The McDonalds argument doesn't wash.
     
  10. Rick Deckard

    Rick Deckard Technology Fan

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not really interested in PC versus Mac versus Unix/Linux.

    Stick to what you know and like is what I say.

    In the past, I've owned and used Windows 3.1, 95, 98, NT, 2000 and XP and have found none of them to be as powerful as *nix based O/Ss. They're just not that good.

    I'm currently using a dual-booted machine (XP Home/Linux Ubuntu) and I honestly find myself using Linux 95% of the time (if not more). It's so much more configurable than a Windows machine. More accessible while being more secure at the same time.

    It's modular architecture makes so much more sense than the blob-of-monolithic-code we called 'Windows' - the operating system (kernel) is totally separate from the user interface; you can mix and match as much as you like. This also allows you to run 'lean' configurations that make full use of the hardware and don't waste CPU clicks on unnecessary 'bloat'.

    So, yes Linux can be unforgiving to the newbies who've only ever used Windows - the learning curve puts many off - but once over a few hurdles, you'll wonder why you didn't switch sooner.

    Microsoft make an operating system for the masses - it works in the way that Microsoft want it to work, rather than the end user. It's for 'casual' users who spend 10 minutes-a-day surfing the web or writing a letter.

    Serious users should look elsewhere.
     
  11. dbtrek

    dbtrek Technology Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    We agree there. I spend about 30% of my time on this ancient laptop I've recently ressurrected using Slackware 9.0 (Pentium II, 64MB RAM). Linux is great for people who have the time to invest in learning about computers. However, the general public isn't interested in tackling the learning curve involved in with maintaining a Linux box. They just want to turn their machine on, browse the web, play some video games, and fire off a few emails.

    In this respect Windows and Mac OS make more sense for the average user. Consumers are then faced with which of these two competing OS's to use, and overwhelmingly they choose the vastly superior Windows OS. :)

    I say that tongue in cheek, of course. I think the benefits to using Windows vs. Mac OS are obvious, but I'm in the process of putting together yet another argument demonstrating why.

    -DBTrek
     
  12. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    There is no argument other than market share or the possible availability of an application not supported on the Mac to use Windows. There is no evidence of its superiority. A higher market share does not make a better product.
     
  13. Rick Deckard

    Rick Deckard Technology Fan

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Absolutely - my folks have just bought a new box with Vista pre-installed - they should stick with that because they barely know how run anything other than a browser. I'd never recommend Linux to people in that position.

    Also, the choice was made for them - they got a respectably specced machine for £50 UK (~$100 USD) as long as they subscribe to a particular broadband package, so in that case there is no competition.
     
  14. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    This, of course, is a great reason for buying a Mac as opposed to the PC. The Mac is more reliable at basic tasks, easier to master, and isn't inundated by the ever-present malware threats that exist on the Windows platform.

    One reason why Apple's sales growth is three times that of the PC industry at large is because more and more Windows users are realizing they were sold a bill of goods and they are beginning to rebel. Meanwhile, all the major analysts regard the Vista reception as tepid.
     
  15. Rick Deckard

    Rick Deckard Technology Fan

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't disagree with you Gene, but the reality for people in my parents position is that the cheapest option is the superior one - to people with their level of computer knowledge, buying a new computer/OS combo is the same as buying a new washing machine. They neither know or care to know the pro's and con's of one OS over another. As long as they can surf the web and send the odd email, they're happy.

    For me, Linux will always be superior to both Windows and Macs because it's *free and open source* and therefore within *everyone's budget*. It makes available perfectly adequate (and legally obtained) software to *everyone* on the planet with access to a computer and allows them the *freedom* to use and modify it in any way they wish.

    Computing for all is the way to go.
     
  16. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    Works fine until the first bout of malware strikes your Windows box, and you realize you failed to renew your subscription for prevention software :)
     
  17. Rick Deckard

    Rick Deckard Technology Fan

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I have to say that in all the years that I've been using Windoze (since 3.1 first come out) I have not had a single case of a virus or malware and I have never paid for anti-virus/firewall applications - I use AVG anti-virus (free edition) and both Zonealarm firewall (free edition) and Commodo Pro Firewall (freeware).

    I use Firefox, with the NoScript and Adblock plugins - all freeware.

    I also use Ad-aware (personal edition, also free) and Spybot-search-and-destroy, also free. Neither of these have ever detected anything more dangerous than a tracking-cookie - which is what they're designed to do.

    I agree that Windows is not the most secure OS and at the same time is the biggest target for virus writers - but in the end, if you take the right precautions, you can keep nasty processes from getting on your system in the first place.
     
  18. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Writer, editor, talk show host
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    The point being that you have to have all that stuff in place, free or paid, to get protection from things that don't strike Macs.
     
  19. Rick Deckard

    Rick Deckard Technology Fan

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, I'm with you. They don't strike Linux either. But neither Mac or Linux are immune to the threat of viruses - if the writers put all their efforts into writing a Mac virus, I'm confident they could crack it. The fact is that Windoze is the market leader by a large margin, so a virus writer will always pick the biggest target - it's part of game. They compete to see who can infect the most machines. You stand a better chance with the most popular (not best) OS.

    Personally, I'd rather not use Windoze or Mac, or more accurately, I have no need to use either of those two operating systems.
     
  20. erwin_01

    erwin_01 Technology Novice

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    From experience (I work in the Graphic Design Industry) I feel that PCs are better than Macs. Unfortunately the majority of Graphic Designers believe they "need" to use Macs, despite that a PC can do the same thing at a cheaper price, a PC is easier (and cheaper) to upgrade, is easier to repair, and has more software available to them.

    Also, from experience, I have found that Mac users tend to get confused when confronted with a mouse with more then one button.
     
Loading...

Share This Page